a religion

[Mythril Roxas]

Interesting to say the least, a classic debate is a brewing!! ^_^

Originally Posted by Figure.09

I beg to debate on which religion came first. It may have come before Christianity, but it wasn't the first.

All religions are essentially derivative of Sun worship, not Zoroastrianism. In fact Zoroastrianism is pretty much classic religion in terms of where it is derived from. You even said 12 is a scared number, no doubt referencing astrology (12 signs of the Zodiac).

It's fabricated IMO. I'll go into more detail later, but right now I'm in accounting. lol

I think I said Egyptian Sun worship came before Zoroastrianism didn't I? It was probably one of the first "organized" religions. Yes there was idol worship and Judaism claimz to have been a religion since the beginning of time, but the earliest scrolls of religious text belongs to Zoroastrianism. And yeah, most every religion worships a Sun god, but Zoroastrianism was the first to not believe in the sun I think. Ahura-Mazda is seen as a god of light, truth, righteousness, and order. A god of Asha. But someone like Jesus is a complete "copy cat" off of someone like Horus, or Ahura-Mazda, or Hercules, or Ra, or Budha. You see, they're all the same. And Ahura-Mazda is the only one with no corilation to the sun. Why?
Because he is righteous.
I don't know if I should post this, because maybe some of you can't handle all of this right now. I'd like you to do something for me, if you have a Bible handy get it out. Look up these 2 passages: Revelations 22: 16 and Isaiah 14:12.
Within these 2 passages lies the truth of the god known as Jesus. Who is Jesus really? Whom does the Christian faith believe in really?
Get back to me on that, will ya?

Originally Posted by Desert Warrior

I don't think that all of those religions you mentioned copied off of Zoroastrianism. Buddism, for instance, was developed by Budda (sp?) and he started it from maditation, I think. And Christianity was started by Jesus. As they teach, Jesus is the son of God, and he knew that he was supposed to begin it.

And there has been some form of religion for as long as humans have been around. In ancient Mesopotamia, thousands of years before Egyptian people were around, they believed in many gods. They has small idols of those gods in their houses. That is the oldest non-bible record of religion.

Ah, the Budha. Budha actually took a lot of his "sayings" or lifes true meanings from Zoroastrianism. Its all linked, its all copied. I was raised Lutheran, so I know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about Christianity, and I have studied other worldly religions before, but theres always more to learn. I hope in ways I'm helping some of you learn about something, thats my goal for this forum debate in a way.

[Figure.09]

Originally Posted by Mythril Roxas

Interesting to say the least, a classic debate is a brewing!! ^_^ I think I said Egyptian Sun worship came before Zoroastrianism didn't I? It was probably one of the first "organized" religions. Yes there was idol worship and Judaism claimz to have been a religion since the beginning of time, but the earliest scrolls of religious text belongs to Zoroastrianism. And yeah, most every religion worships a Sun god, but Zoroastrianism was the first to not believe in the sun I think. Ahura-Mazda is seen as a god of light, truth, righteousness, and order. A god of Asha. But someone like Jesus is a complete "copy cat" off of someone like Horus, or Ahura-Mazda, or Hercules, or Ra, or Budha. You see, they're all the same. And Ahura-Mazda is the only one with no corilation to the sun. Why?
Because he is righteous.
I don't know if I should post this, because maybe some of you can't handle all of this right now. I'd like you to do something for me, if you have a Bible handy get it out. Look up these 2 passages: Revelations 22: 16 and Isaiah 14:12.
Within these 2 passages lies the truth of the god known as Jesus. Who is Jesus really? Whom does the Christian faith believe in really?
Get back to me on that, will ya?

So, Ahura-Mazda is the only one with no correlation to the sun simply because he is righteous?

Well hey, Buddha was "righteous" too. We all are.

The sun is the largest object, and the brightest object, in the day sky. The chances of there being relations are high, because it is what causes the light. The chances are almost as great that the information was fabricated from a past faith. Simply having a perception of justice isn't enough to immediately disprove his relation to the sun. You have to actually, somehow, give me some kind of reason to believe that. Simply saying it and then telling me to look up a passage does nothing for your argument. If you want to prove something with a passage, it'd be better if you posted it.

[Mike]

The problem with like 90% of religious people is that they are what I refer to as the 'religious ignorant.'

"Who do Christians believe in REALLY?"



Who's to say your views are right? Who's to say Christianity's views are right?

And furthermore...perhaps what I tend to take to heart more than most people...what if BOTH are right?

We all have our paths to God. If we bicker about who He is, or why we're here, we'll just wind up looking silly. God's not going to smite us for looking at him the wrong way, or calling him the wrong thing (with good intentions of course).


Here's an exercise for the religious readers (unfortunately, it doesn't work for atheists ). Picture a friend of yours who is either a different religion, atheist, or otherwise different from you. A good friends of yours...we all have those.

Would God (or whatever you'd refer to Him as in your specific beliefs) send one of you two to hell for being 'wrong'? If you married a person of a different faith...would one of you most certainly be damned? Or is there a way for everything to resolve itself in the end (ie. as per the Zoroastranism way you mentioned, where everyone winds up in Heaven in the end).

Go with what you feel in your heart. It's not 'Christians worship my God' or 'I worship a Christian God.' It's "I worship God." (or again, whatever specific name you would have for Him)

[Mythril Roxas]

okay, some hostility. I understand that the unknown may frighten some, then again others will go into the dark closset to see whats inside....

So, Ahura-Mazda is the only one with no correlation to the sun simply because he is righteous?

No, I didn't mean it like that. He is a god of asha. Asha means truth, order, and righteousness. Those three things are the true "light" or, if any, good things in the world, things you can trust. Order may go to far, to much order is what gives birth to chaos and rebellion, but a certain amount of moral order must be kept to live a peaceful life. Thats why I love Americ a so much, what our founding fathers set up for the future was genious. But within the last 100 years, the enemy has gained control over our governments system, and the "rules" have been changed. (if you know what i mean).

Well hey, Buddha was "righteous" too. We all are.

First off, you are totally wrong. I don't know about Buddha, but 99.99999999999999% of everything on the earth is completely and totally "unrighteous". We are hear because we sin, we must prove to God that we are decent enough to return to him...

The sun is the largest object, and the brightest object, in the day sky. The chances of there being relations are high, because it is what causes the light.

true, true. It is that very thing. So, is it a god? for real, it creates light. So, why do we treat it in such a way? hm?

The chances are almost as great that the information was fabricated from a past faith. Simply having a perception of justice isn't enough to immediately disprove his relation to the sun. You have to actually, somehow, give me some kind of reason to believe that.

I'm of the religion? I know that I don't represent the whole religion, but if you really don't believe me, look it up some time.laziness.....

Simply saying it and then telling me to look up a passage does nothing for your argument. If you want to prove something with a passage, it'd be better if you posted it.

I was just checking to see if you were to lazy and didn't really care, or if you really cared and weren't lazy about it. Its just looking up a passage, it takes 4 seconds. You my friend are a lazy ass....

The problem with like 90% of religious people is that they are what I refer to as the 'religious ignorant.'

"Who do Christians believe in REALLY?"

I know what your talking about. No one is open minded any more. There are either people who don't care, or cling to what they know, even if someone could prove it false. I hate religiously ignorant people, they're the same as athiests in my opinion.

Who's to say your views are right? Who's to say Christianity's views are right?

....uh, me. Christian views are hypocritical. I used to be a Lutheran, but turned away from it once I learned the truth of it.

And furthermore...perhaps what I tend to take to heart more than most people...what if BOTH are right?

In ways both arem, but 100% of the time, Christians copy off of ancient religions......so your point?

We all have our paths to God. If we bicker about who He is, or why we're here, we'll just wind up looking silly.

Again, wrong. true we al have our paths to god, but searching for the truth isn't foolish in the least. Its why we're here, to discover what must be known and learned in order to pass back to Paradise. Fools are those who are lazy. That comment my friend is LAZY!

God's not going to smite us for looking at him the wrong way, or calling him the wrong thing (with good intentions of course).

Or will he? You don't know, don't pretend to know.

Would God (or whatever you'd refer to Him as in your specific beliefs) send one of you two to hell for being 'wrong'? If you married a person of a different faith...would one of you most certainly be damned? Or is there a way for everything to resolve itself in the end (ie. as per the Zoroastranism way you mentioned, where everyone winds up in Heaven in the end).

He might, again, don't pretend to know things you don't.

Go with what you feel in your heart. It's not 'Christians worship my God' or 'I worship a Christian God.' It's "I worship God." (or again, whatever specific name you would have for Him)

Thats a liberal view. I don't know if i'm totally into that belief or not. I used to be, know I question it.

[Figure.09]

No, I didn't mean it like that. He is a god of asha. Asha means truth, order, and righteousness. Those three things are the true "light" or, if any, good things in the world, things you can trust. Order may go to far, to much order is what gives birth to chaos and rebellion, but a certain amount of moral order must be kept to live a peaceful life. Thats why I love Americ a so much, what our founding fathers set up for the future was genious. But within the last 100 years, the enemy has gained control over our governments system, and the "rules" have been changed. (if you know what i mean).

Well, again, you aren't making a very clear connection. You're actually supporting my solar derivation theory more by implying those things are the true "light."

First off, you are totally wrong. I don't know about Buddha, but 99.99999999999999% of everything on the earth is completely and totally "unrighteous". We are hear because we sin, we must prove to God that we are decent enough to return to him...

Telling me I'm wrong when you don't even know, and then saying everyone is "unrighteous." These are entirely based on opinion, and have no solid ground to argue on.

The simple point I was making was that all human's or higher being's seem to follow the same righteous idealism that we seem to have, that incorporate perfection one way or another. Usually all the same, but still consistent nonetheless.

Also, my signature explains this phenomena (or sickness) quite well...

The reason the world is such a disaster is not because of some innate human flaw. It is a disaster because separatist, racist institutions like Religion, Nationalism and thus Politics, continue to corrupt each generation with the same age old value systems, designed only for social subservience and the perpetuation of the status quo.

true, true. It is that very thing. So, is it a god? for real, it creates light. So, why do we treat it in such a way? hm?

It isn't a god. That's the point I'm making. Back then, in the time's when people had no telescopes, they had zero way of knowing what was there. The sky was, as a result, one of the only things they could look at and truly wonder "what is this...?" That's how those people treated those kinds of idea's, and thus dubbed it as natural or instinctive to think that there was some omnipotent being behind it.

It's a logical argument, I'm not trying to make it up. lol

I'm of the religion? I know that I don't represent the whole religion, but if you really don't believe me, look it up some time.laziness.....

I have looked it up. In fact, I've studied religion consistently for the past two years. And what bothers me the most is you're accusing me of laziness in an intelligent discussion over a subject such as this. So, let's leave out the insults and demeanors.

I was just checking to see if you were to lazy and didn't really care, or if you really cared and weren't lazy about it. Its just looking up a passage, it takes 4 seconds. You my friend are a lazy ass....

I don't have a Bible, and I wouldn't necessarily know where to look it up on the internet. But because you failed to support it, I had to go find it myself. This is the point of a discussion; bringing a reasonable argument and bringing necessary materials to support such. It accomplishes nothing to keep saying things like, "you're lazy." It makes this look childish.



By the way, I'm not trying to exert hostility. Whether you think I am because of the way I bring up my arguments or what, I've given no reason for anyone to believe that. It's simply being serious that makes it appear as though I'm hostile, right?

[Mythril Roxas]

Well, again, you aren't making a very clear connection. You're actually supporting my solar derivation theory more by implying those things are the true "light."

I meant light as in whats good or right, not an actual light. But it is curious that all religions have differnet moral concepts and ideals of ways of living for god, yet all are connected by the sun? The connection intreges me.

Telling me I'm wrong when you don't even know, and then saying everyone is "unrighteous." These are entirely based on opinion, and have no solid ground to argue on.

Its called logic. No one is perfect. Thats logic talking. Its something that can be proven, but doesn't need to be because its almost like common knowledge. Thats logic. Everyone is "sinful" or an infedal. EVERYONE.

The simple point I was making was that all human's or higher being's seem to follow the same righteous idealism that we seem to have, that incorporate perfection one way or another. Usually all the same, but still consistent nonetheless.

I don't think thats entirely correct. Most everyone views things differently. Religions, political views, moral concepts....everyone's is different. One person's view of righteousness could be way different than another persons. Again, no hard facts, just a little truth and logic.

It isn't a god. That's the point I'm making. Back then, in the time's when people had no telescopes, they had zero way of knowing what was there. The sky was, as a result, one of the only things they could look at and truly wonder "what is this...?" That's how those people treated those kinds of idea's, and thus dubbed it as natural or instinctive to think that there was some omnipotent being behind it.

Again, the connection all religions have with the sun intreges me.....lol

I have looked it up. In fact, I've studied religion consistently for the past two years. And what bothers me the most is you're accusing me of laziness in an intelligent discussion over a subject such as this. So, let's leave out the insults and demeanors.

Hey, just pointing out your "moments" of laziness. Can't handle it? Then don't be lazy.

I don't have a Bible, and I wouldn't necessarily know where to look it up on the internet.

um, just type the passage in on google.....DUH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

But because you failed to support it, I had to go find it myself.

I thought you just said you couldn't find it?

This is the point of a discussion; bringing a reasonable argument and bringing necessary materials to support such. It accomplishes nothing to keep saying things like, "you're lazy." It makes this look childish.

Its because there are many translations of the Bible, and I felt like there would be confusion which would allow me to use logic to explain hypocrisy in Christianity. The Bible is always changing. They disregard the fact that "god" doesn't want us to add or subtract from his holy scripture.

By the way, I'm not trying to exert hostility. Whether you think I am because of the way I bring up my arguments or what, I've given no reason for anyone to believe that. It's simply being serious that makes it appear as though I'm hostile, right?

No, just I saw that the replies after mine were not neccesarily "nice" and that I might've accidentily offended some peeps, which i didn't mean to do. Sorry for the confusion (if any....lol)

[Mythril Roxas]

okay, here are the passages:
(N.I.V) Isaiah 14:12- How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
(KJV) Isaiah 14:12- How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
NIV Revelation 22:16- "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give this testimony to you for the churches. I am the root and descendent of David, the bright morning star."
Do you see what I'm getting at? also, lucifus means morning star in latin I think. Question: Why would Jesus call himself Lucifer?

[Figure.09]

Well, it would be logical to assume that Jesus is in fact Lucifer. However as expressed orally we all know he isn't.

The printed bibles have either been altered, or there is a deeper meaning to it. I'd love to say Jesus = Lucifer, but that might not get much attention. lol

What are you trying to get at with this?

[Mythril Roxas]

Originally Posted by Figure.09

Well, it would be logical to assume that Jesus is in fact Lucifer. However as expressed orally we all know he isn't.

The printed bibles have either been altered, or there is a deeper meaning to it. I'd love to say Jesus = Lucifer, but that might not get much attention. lol

What are you trying to get at with this?

Bing!, we have a winner! Good work Figure, not even I guessed that once I found it out...I was more in denial of it. You my friend have my respect. Now, down to the topic of it.
I have found in my studies of the fallen angels and pre-Renaissance Christianity that the telling of the tale has changed and/or been ignored by the church. This tale is crucial to my own belief in God, so I studied the subject for many months. Its actually what brought me into all this studying religion and stuff. But more on the 2 passages, Jesus deliberitly calls himself a Jew and Lucifer before his last words:"I am coming soon". "I am the Root and the Offspring of David....." He's calling himself the descendant of King David. David was a man, why would the "son of god" need to make sure everyone knew he was a Jew? Thats earthly stuff, he doesn't ned to waist his time with that. Thats problemo numero uno. Secondly, the morning star. I believe i've already stated that in latin lucifus means morning star, which sounds a lot like Lucifer. And as an angel he was the prince of light. All together we can conclude that Jesus calls himself the Morning Star for a reason. Like bread crumbs to the truth. The Star that rises in the Morning is what? HM? Its the sun. How many times has Jesus called himself the sun? plenty, but thats not the point. The point is that when we trace the reference of Morning Star back to Isaiah, it is seen as a negative reference to Lucifer, and it talks of the MS being the "son of the dawn". What is the dawn? The dawn is the coming of the sun. Conclusion: Jesus uses the title MS as another way of saying he is coming again. We know that he will come again to raise the dead on Judgement Day, but there will be 2 who claim to be Jesus......or only One. if there are two, then the one who has any tie to he title of Morning Star or the Dawn, then it is the Anti-Christ, or Lucifer. The other one will be "good". If there is only one who claims to be the Christ reborn, then we're screwed. Because we now know that a "bad guy" is coming to take over the world, its only a matter of time to see if the "good guy" will follow.